Thursday, April 2, 2009

History and the Movies: Jeannette Rankin



I often connect history and the movies in my head. When I think about or read about an historical event, often a movie dealing with the same themes will come to mind. Today is no exception. On this day in 1917 Jeanette Rankin officially took her seat in the House of Representatives to become the first woman elected to the United States Congress, and whenever I think of Rankin, Friendly Persuasion comes to mind. Allow me to explain.

Women did not have the right to vote across the nation yet in 1918 when Rankin was first elected but they did in Montana, the state from which she hailed. Her election was historic but unfortunately for Rankin, a mere four days after taking her seat there was a vote to enter into the war in Europe, later to be known as World War I. It was unfortunate because she was a pacifist and took the unpopular route of voting against it. A total of fifty members voted against it but as a woman, she was singled out, as if all women would immediately be pacifist. The implication being that a woman didn't have the guts to go to war, nevermind the 49 men who also voted against it. She wasn't re-elected and stayed on in Washington for twenty years as a lobbyist until being voted back to Congress in 1940. Yes, 1940, meaning that December 7th, 1941 occurred during her term of office. Surely her timing at getting elected, not once but twice, decades apart, both times just when a World War was underway, has to be one of the most extraordinary instances of bad luck in political history.

She voted against war with Japan and this time she was not one of fifty, she was one of one. She was alone. Her statement before casting her lone "Nay" vote was, ""As a woman, I can't go to war and I refuse to send anyone else. It is not necessary. I vote NO." It is probably not necessary to relate that this did not go over particularly well. The position was so unpopular she didn't even bother to attempt a re-election campaign.

Rankin was called a pacifist, even by herself, but I don't think that's entirely accurate, or better put, it doesn't tell the whole story. It's all a matter of degrees. Years ago in a discussion with a Professor of History (yes, I was the kind of student that stayed after class and got into discussions with my professors) he told me that he couldn't abide pacifists. They do nothing in the face of injustice, he said, and were to his mind immoral. An activist stands against injustice and he held up Gandhi and Martin Luther King as two shining examples. Non-violent activism was not the same as Pacifism and it bothered him when people confused the two. But that's only one view of Pacifism and a fairly limited one at that (sorry Prof). If you go to this entry on Wikipedia you can see there are as many definitions of Pacifism as there are outlooks on world affairs. Jeanette Rankin was no immoral Pacifist refusing to fight for justice. Quite the opposite.

In life, after voting against both wars, she worked with the war effort on the homefront and later led a march of some 5,000 women to the Capitol Building protesting the Vietnam War. Rankin was an activist with non-violent principles. An extreme pacifist, one that refuses to become involved in any way is quite different than Rankin. One could argue that merely getting elected and taking part in the political process proved she was no Pacifist of the non-involvement variety.



In Friendly Persuasion it's that idea of non-involvement that is palpable. I don't much like the film because I feel it swings back and forth between serious examination of principles and lightheartedness too often and too uneasily for me. I'm no big fan of Samantha the Goose and feel the story would have been better served without all the silliness in between the moral arguments. But those arguments of principle are what make the movie worthwhile. And it has always made me wonder about the ideals of non-involvement.

In the film the Birdwell family will avoid involvement even to the point of not protecting themselves. The son Josh, played by Anthony Perkins, decides to fight against the approaching Confederate hordes and protect himself and his family. His father Jess, Gary Cooper, does not and disagrees with the action. The problem for me is that the film tries to have it both ways. Josh fights but isn't killed and so the characters are spared having to deal with the moral guilt of someone dying to protect them, the very act of with which they disagree.

Or the scene where Jess fights a soldier, overpowers him and then lets him go. Had the soldier threatened Jess enough that Jess kills him in the heat of the moment there would be more places to go but as it is we get to see Jess fight for himself and also be a pacifist, having his cake and eating it too.

How about when the home is invaded while Jess and Josh are gone? The mother, Dorothy McGuire, invites the soldiers in, let's them have whatever they want and everyone's happy. Would that really happen, or would she have been raped and killed? And then would Jess have stood by his religious beliefs or engaged in an act of revenge?

All questions never answered by the film because it never asks them. Still, it is a well made film and William Wyler's direction is admirable. The way the films juggles the moral questions and finally skirts around them though, isn't. In the end, the movie is too afraid to support any one view of pacifism or non-violence to its conclusion. The ideals of fighting for what one believes in but stopping short of violence to get it is an admirable principle, one that I am not sure I could adhere to every day of my life. It would be interesting to see it explored fully by a film like Friendly Persuasion but only in real life, with the likes of Jeanette Rankin, Martin Luther King and Mohandas K. Gandhi, can we see those ideas realized and fully examined.

66 comments:

Rick Olson said...

Fine, meaty post, Jonathan. Ghandi would have been proud of Rankin.

Friendly Persuasion I have not seen in so long that my memories of it are useless, but "The Patriot" as a similar set up, pacifist dad becomes bloodthirsty overnight. It has even less ambiguity and nuance than you describe.

Given what I do, I can't resist quoting Ghandi on a certain 2000 year old carpenter: "I showed years ago in South Africa that the adjective 'passive' was a misnomer, at least as applied to Jesus. He was the most active resister known perhaps to history. His was non-violence par excellence." Too bad Christians have in general fucked it all up.

Rick Olson said...

Oops, I'm sorry Greg, I sent it to somebody named Jonathan ... bad blogger, BAD blogger!

Greg said...

I'm sorry Greg, I sent it to somebody named Jonathan

That's the first time that's happened since dropping the pseudonym. Only once in two weeks isn't bad.

I didn't like The Patriot at all, for many things including not understanding the time in which it takes place. One of the walk on characters, a woman, remarks, "Well it's a free country, or at least it will be." People in that time did not understand a free country as opposed to an oppressed country in the way someone does today based on Constitutional liberties. The educated understood the notion of being taxed without getting a say with the Government but this whole notion of America, the Free Country, didn't exist then. Thats' just one example of the persistently anachronistic writing in that movie.

As to Rankin, I wouldn't have voted "Nay" myself in 1941 but I admire someone who stands by their principles when the result will be political suicide. There are so few cases of that in Congressional history it's enough to elevate her in my mind above most other members who have served that legislative body.

bill r. said...

As to Rankin, I wouldn't have voted "Nay" myself in 1941 but I admire someone who stands by their principles when the result will be political suicide.

Okay, great, but she was still dead wrong. Being committed to the wrong cause is nothing to be proud of.

Rick Olson said...

I probably wouldn't have voted "nay" either. It was pretty hard to see a peaceful way out of WWII.

Ghandi makes a distinction between "passive resistance" and his concept of "satyagraha," of which he claims Jesus to have been an exemplar. In the former, armed violence can be used be used along-side passive resistance. In satyagraha, again according to Ghandi, there is no room at all for violent means. Sounds like Rankin was a satyagrahi.

But I dislike the "The Patriot" a lot, not just because of its anachronisms, but because of the flattening out of the nuances of "non-violence." It makes the flat case that non-violence is un-manly bad is just another of Gibson's excuses to make a bloody revenge pic.

Rick Olson said...

And Bill, what Jonathan said was standing up for her beliefs was honorable, not the belief itself.

Rick Olson said...

Jesus, Greg GREG! I'm going to have to lobotomize myself and start over.

Greg said...

Okay, great, but she was still dead wrong.

Not according to Pat Buchannan who doesn't even think we should've fought the Nazis. Who would ever guess Buchannan and Rankin would be on the same side. Of course, they're not and I bring that up to simply illustrate that you can be against something or for it for completely different reasons than someone else.

Buchannan is all wrong, as documented here by Christopher Hitchens whereas Rankin was standing by principles that we could have defeated evil without violent conflict, not that what was going on wasn't bad.

I agree with you, as regards to the Nazis and the Japanese Military Regime, I think that was wrong and violent conflict was necessary. But I don't begrudge her thinking non-violent means could bring about peace and sticking to it.

bill r. said...

Gibson just acted in The Patriot. He doesn't even have a producer credit on it. Why go after him? I agree, it's a terrible movie, but why blame Gibson?

I'm feeling contrary today.

Rick Olson said...

Bill, Gibson is a jerk. There. How's that for contrary?

Greg said...

Jesus, Greg

Now you're confusing me with Jesus. Get with the program Rick.

Rick Olson said...

Greg, I often do that. Ask my wife.

bill r. said...

Not according to Pat Buchannan who doesn't even think we should've fought the Nazis.

I don't know what that has to do with anything. I don't like Buchanan either, not that it's relevant. I don't see what's so great about sticking to the wrong principles. A lot of people stick to a lot of principles that you guys would find abhorrant. Do they get credit for sticking to them?

Greg said...

I don't see what's so great about sticking to the wrong principles. A lot of people stick to a lot of principles that you guys would find abhorrant. Do they get credit for sticking to them?

No, but you're assuming her principles are wrong. What if diplomatic means had won the day over the course of two more years? It's not like someone sticking by the principles that women are devils and should be stoned to death if they learn to read. She stuck by the principles of non-violence. You may not agree but that doesn't make it wrong.

Rick Olson said...

Bill, as far as I'm concerned, it depends on the principle. There is ample evidence that non-violent means work in some cases, but it's the view of you and almost everyone else that it wouldn't have worked in the case of WWII, and that's certainly my view as well.

But I wouldn't call the opposite view abhorrent, at least in Rankin's case.

There were quite a few senators who voted to "authorize" the conflict in Iraq who privately thought it was an horrible idea. They voted out of political expediency for the war, and I find that abhorrent, especially in the case of something as devastating as war.

bill r. said...

In the case of WWII, it absolutely was wrong. By 1941, she should have known enough of what was going on to realize that going to war against Japan and Germany was the clear moral choice. Choosing to not go to war at that time was, I firmly believe, immoral.

bill r. said...

But I wouldn't call the opposite view abhorrent, at least in Rankin's case.

I didn't say HER view was abhorrant (that was a vague example of other views that people hold to), but it WAS wrong, and I can't give her credit for sticking to it.

Greg said...

I didn't say HER view was abhorrant (that was a vague example of other views that people hold to), but it WAS wrong, and I can't give her credit for sticking to it.

Well since we entered into the war we can never know if it was wrong. What if we had gone to war with the Soviet Union after they invaded countries like Czechoslovakia or Afghanistan? We didn't. The Nazis invaded coutries as did the Japanese and we did.

When we didn't go to war with the Soviets it eventually came out good for our side and there system collapsed. So what if there had been a vote to go to war with the Soviets and someone voted Nay. We then went to war and defeated them after four years and millions of deaths.

Then I write a piece on the person who voted no and you say she was wrong.

Well, since we didn't go to war with the Soviets we can now say with assurance that it wasn't wrong.

And that's what I keep going back to. While you, Rick and myself may believe going to war was the right thing to do, I cannot with 100 percent confidence say that non-violent means were wrong, since history never gave them the opportunity to play themselves out that way.

bill r. said...

I cannot with 100 percent confidence say that non-violent means were wrong, since history never gave them the opportunity to play themselves out that way.

And thank God for that. Going to war against Hitler is the reason the Holocaust ended. Think about how long non-violent protest would have taken to work against Hitler, if it ever would have (and it wouldn't have), and think about how much longer the Holocaust would have lasted. Rankin knew what was going on. At the very least, she was stupid. I'm sorry, but she was.

Fox said...

Nice piece of history here that I was unaware of, Greg.

But wasn't Buchanan not against the war, just that he thought Poland should have acquiesced to Hitler and thus prevented the millions of deaths that followed? I haven't read that book of his so I may be shooting in the air here. Anyways... that's kind of a side note to your post.

I'd like to hear more of Rankin's own thoughts as to why she was a pacifist. In theory, pacifism is a fine idea, but, in my mind, a totally illogical philosophy. It's like abstinence. Ok, sure, if you wanna promotie it, that's fine. It's an admirable thing to dream about, but it ain't gonna happen when you're dealing with humankind.

Greg said...

Rankin knew what was going on.

Sorry but Rankin did not know the Holocaust was going on. That wasn't widely known until 1945. And I know you know that so you're purposely setting up straw man arguments at this point.

Okay, you hate Jeanette Rankin, we get it.

Ryan Kelly said...

Not killing and not fucking are the same concept?

I still fail to see what's wrong with a woman standing by her principles and telling an establishment that had manufactured a war for the sake of industry to stick it where the sun don't shine. If only more men could have had balls like that woman.

What America should have done is not let Germany get to the point where someone like Hitler could have risen. The country was in ruins after WWI, and we just let 'em rot. They were using currency to light their stoves with, for Pete's sake. What did we expect would happen, they'd sit back and be happy with being isolated from the rest of the world?

Greg said...

Fox, it is an idealistic view I agree. Like I said with Bill and Rick, I wouldn't have voted that way either and don't believe non-violent means would have worked.

I may not agree with it but I can't on principle declare that non-violence is wrong, which I think is where Bill and I are running into confusion.

Greg said...

Bill, sorry if my previous comment came off a little rude. Not my intention. You are not purposely setting up straw man arguments. I apologize.

bill r. said...

And I know you know that so you're purposely setting up straw man arguments at this point.

Okay, you hate Jeanette Rankin, we get it.


Excuse me. You yourself have said in the past that by the time of Kristallnacht the writing was on the wall.

Anyway, forgive me for disagreeing with you. I was under the impression that was allowed.

bill r. said...

Woop...

Scratch my last comment, then.

Greg said...

Ryan, Christopher Hitchens has said that there was one long World War from 1914 to 1945 with a 22 year cease fire in the middle. I think that's about right.

I think most world leaders and governments realized by the thirties they had fucked up with the harsh penalties of the Versailles Treaty but by that time a worldwide economic crisis was afloat and not much could be done about it economically.

Ryan Kelly said...

Boys! Can't you see that you love each other?

Greg said...

Bill, no problem. I do want you to disagree with me. I think my problem is coming from confusion over the principles of non-violence which I think are admirable. As such, even though I disagree with her vote I admire her sticking to those principles even though I agree with you that she could have thought outside the box a bit more and seen this situation as unique.

Ryan Kelly said...


I think most world leaders and governments realized by the thirties they had fucked up with the harsh penalties of the Versailles Treaty but by that time a worldwide economic crisis was afloat and not much could be done about it economically.


And this is the tragedy of shortsightedness, especially in regards to war. What we did to Germany is no different than when the North burned Atlanta down. Irrational bitterness fueled by rage.

I mean, can we be surprised that Germany got into the position to allow a maniac like Hitler to rise? Who, especially when they're suffering, doesn't want to be told that they're the best?

Greg said...

Ryan, I hate Bill.

Fox said...

I may not agree with it but I can't on principle declare that non-violence is wrong, which I think is where Bill and I are running into confusion.

Greg-

Oh I agree. I don't think non-violence is "wrong", I just don't think it's ever a feasible option in the wider world of global conflict.

Now, non-violence or pacificsm as a philosophy within a household or a small group or a village or as - in MLK's eyes - a style or protest? Sure, I think that can work, but I think it's "workable" boundaries end right about there. I think everyone here agrees with that. But, maybe not.

Ryan Kelly said...

As such, even though I disagree with her vote I admire her sticking to those principles even though I agree with you that she could have thought outside the box a bit more and seen this situation as unique.

They had the entirety of the House of Representatives, don't us tree hugging pussy pacifists deserve one vote?

Plus, she ran on a platform of anti-violence and anti-war and would have looked like a major sell-out if she'd voted in favor of it. I'm not saying it was all posturing, but that may have been part of it.

Greg said...

Ryan, Hitler was certainly an opportunist and grabbed the reins when the moment was ripe with despair. But does that mean the Allied forces are to blame for what happened from 1939 to 1945? I don't think it does. Sure, we screwed the pooch, but that doesn't mean Hitler was inevitable. That situation might have arisen without World War I. At least it's possible.

Greg said...

Plus, she ran on a platform of anti-violence and anti-war and would have looked like a major sell-out if she'd voted in favor of it. I'm not saying it was all posturing, but that may have been part of it.

Well the people that voted for her certainly knew what they were getting. She didn't hide the fact that she never believed in going to war.

bill r. said...

Greg - My problem is that I see Rankin as clinging irrationally to a principle to the point that it has become immoral. I can't salute her for that.

Ryan - I understand the situation Germany was in when Hitler came to power, but to say "Well of course they let a genocidal madman take control, and turned a blind eye to his atrocities!" is to, let's say, go a little too easy on the Germans. And the tone I'm shooting for is "gargantuan understatement"

Ryan Kelly said...

But does that mean the Allied forces are to blame for what happened from 1939 to 1945? I don't think it does. Sure, we screwed the pooch, but that doesn't mean Hitler was inevitable. That situation might have arisen without World War I. At least it's possible.

Oh no, and I wasn't trying to imply that was the case. I'm just saying that America and the rest of Europe were being deliberately exclusionary to Germany. Yes, bitterness is one of the spoils of war, but I'm just saying that the bitterness just breeds more extreme bitterness. The cycle never ends.

She didn't hide the fact that she never believed in going to war.

And if she had gone against the platform she ran on, that may have been enough for her to lose re-election. It was really a no-win situation from her standpoint. Might as well go with your principles.

Ryan, I hate Bill.

I won't tell him you said that. He's very sensitive, you know!

Ryan Kelly said...

And we've so busy talking about pacifism and anti-violence that I forgot to mention how well written this post was. Great relation of cinema and history, a wonderful read (as per usual).

Greg said...

I said this:

Sure, we screwed the pooch, but that doesn't mean Hitler was inevitable.

And Bill said this:

I understand the situation Germany was in when Hitler came to power, but to say "Well of course they let a genocidal madman take control, and turned a blind eye to his atrocities!" is to, let's say, go a little too easy on the Germans.

Bill and I are in agreement. Woo-hoo!

Anyway, Fox, good point about global versus local, so to speak, in regards to non-violence. I agree, it gets sketchy on an international level but hopefully one day it won't be.

Ryan Kelly said...

I understand the situation Germany was in when Hitler came to power, but to say "Well of course they let a genocidal madman take control, and turned a blind eye to his atrocities!" is to, let's say, go a little too easy on the Germans. And the tone I'm shooting for is "gargantuan understatement"

Not to get moralistic on you, but what exactly would you have done if you were just bill r. from Germany in the late 30s? Do you really think every German citizen endorsed what Hitler was doing (assuming they even knew the extent of what he was doing)?

Greg said...

Ryan - Thank you for the compliment. As I said a couple of weeks ago when dropping the pseudonym, I planned on going into history here as well and this was the first real post on that (the tuberculosis post was a test run basically). I'm glad it had elicited a good response.

Hopefully it will continue but I have to go pick up the daughter from school now. Back later.

Fox said...

Would it be a contradiction to think of the strategy of "peace by promise of mutual destruction" as non-violent?

BTW... I'm enjoying all of y'alls comments. The knowledge of history here is great.

Rick Olson said...

So. What's been happening since I left? Are you guys playing nice?

I can't agree with Fox, non-violence (as opposed to armed revolution, I'm aware that there was rioting in Soweto, etc.) has been successful in at least one instance, the overthrow of Apartheid in South Africa. You did qualify the statement by saying "in the wider world of global conflict," so maybe it doesn't count in your mind.

And Ryan certainly has a point that if we'd done what was right by Germany, maybe it wouldn't have happened. In fact, perhaps that's why non-violence/passive resistance doesn't work often: because nobody tries to apply it's well-known principles up front. Or that nations rarely do the right thing in time.

bill r. said...

Not to get moralistic on you, but what exactly would you have done if you were just bill r. from Germany in the late 30s? Do you really think every German citizen endorsed what Hitler was doing (assuming they even knew the extent of what he was doing)?

All I can say is what I like to think I would have done, which is that I would have resisted Hitler. And that's all you can say, too. And no, I don't believe EVERY German endorsed what Hitler was doing, but a whole hell of a lot of them did. They also knew quite enough of what he was up to. Kristallnacht has already been mentioned, and you don't run a government based on the murder of your opponents and genocide, while using anti-Jewish propoganda to gain public support, under the cover of darkness.

Greg said...

Rick and Fox, I was thinking of South Africa too as well as India. In both instances the government in charge made the final decision to make the change so you have to have semi-reasonable people in charge in the first place for the government to decide to change due to outside resistance and protest. In the case of Hitler you do not have someone reasonable.

So it can work, but you need help from your opponent, so to speak.

bill r. said...

So it can work, but you need help from your opponent, so to speak.

Right. I was going to make that point, had I the opportunity, but now you've done it, so never mind.

Marilyn said...

Bill - First of all, the Holocaust succeeded. The Jewish way of life in Europe has been exterminated. So going to war wasn't about Jews and didn't save European Jewry.

Second, remember that old hippie chant "give peace a chance"? Rankin was, I believe, looking at a WAY bigger picture than one war in Europe. We can't start to live in lasting peace unless we give peace a chance. I'm a Jungian and I believe that we create the worlds we live in. As long as the idea of peace, even in dire circumstances like WWII, stays alive, we can make some progress toward a new world. People who don't compromise on this greater ideal are real heroes in my book. Rankin is one of them.

As for the film under discussion, I haven't seen it. I don't believe we can ever stop the killing unless we change our way of thinking and feeling. Always looking where the light is better instead of where the solution is (which is the straw argument of "sometimes you have to fight") doesn't work for me.

Fox said...

Rick & Greg (or anyone)-

I yield to both of y'alls knowledge on Gandhi and India. I just don't know enough about it to discuss...

I have a genuine curious question, though. Could any of the strife in India today - ie Kashmir, and general tensions with it's neighbor Pakistan (and further, the tensions between Pakistan and the world) - be tied back to violent innaction at the time of Ghandi?

I understand that that is only one variable in an equation of many, but I'm just wondering if Gandhi's pacifism could be criticized for leading us where that region is today.

P.S. Hack away at that all you want. As I said, I don't know the history well enough. Just some legitimate questions.

bill r. said...

Marilyn - Going to war may not have been about saving Jews (never said it was), but stopping Hitler through military force did end the genocide. The Holocaust only partially succeeded. You don't think it would have kept going if the world had tried diplomacy on Hitler? His goal was to exterminate them, all of them, and he didn't. Because he was stopped.

Second, remember that old hippie chant "give peace a chance"? Rankin was, I believe, looking at a WAY bigger picture than one war in Europe. We can't start to live in lasting peace unless we give peace a chance.

As Greg has pointed out, peaceful solutions in these situations are only really possible if you are fortunate enough to be dealing with a reasonably opponent, which Hitler was not. I don't give a damn about Rankin's "bigger picture", which in my view is a naive and impractical one. Her ideals have to take a back seat to what actually needed to be done, and giving peace a chance when dealing with Hitler and WWII Japan would have ensured a mass slaughter beyond the incomprehensible level already recorded by history.

I don't believe we can ever stop the killing unless we change our way of thinking and feeling.

What does this even mean to someone like Hitler? You're going to change the way he feels? It would be nice if Rankin's views were workable, but when dealing with the Hitlers of the world, they are manifestly not.

Marilyn said...

Bill - Saving bodies, yes, I'm glad everyone wasn't exterminated. But they were driven from the land. There is no European Jewry - a way of life is extinct. That's pretty damn important considering the centuries of culture that wove Jewry into European life. It's worse than what happened to Native Americans.

OK, call me an idealist, too. I'm interested in making a big paradigm shift in thinking and feeling, which will, with luck, happen eventually. Certainly not within our lifetimes. But it's not utopian to think that peace could reign. We're just used to human beings behaving one way. It's not inevitable.

I never said you could reason with Hitler anymore than you can reason with the neocons. But I believe the age of the Internet will make the kind of suppression of opposing ideas very difficult to accomplish, and that's the true start of the kind of movement I'm thinking about.

bill r. said...

I never said you could reason with Hitler anymore than you can reason with the neocons.

Because they're the same! I get it. It's time I left this discussion, I think, if this where it's heading.

Greg said...

Could any of the strife in India today - ie Kashmir, and general tensions with it's neighbor Pakistan (and further, the tensions between Pakistan and the world) - be tied back to violent innaction at the time of Ghandi?

Fox, that wouldn't have anything to do with Gandhi. The problems between India and Pakistan are similar to those of Israel and Palestine. In 1947, the last British governor and viceroy of the British Indian Empire, Louis Mountbatten, announced that India would split into two states, one Hindu and one Muslim, India and Pakistan. You know the rest. In fact, fighting broke out between the two almost from day one. And it's hard to see any resolution soon, as with most cases of religious conflict.

I spoke with an Indian man I met in November on my business trip about the Pakistani/Indian situation and I can say honestly that the hatred he had for Pakistanis was palpable. I mean, He. Hated. Them.

Unfortunately, when it comes to religion, most people in this world aren't like Rick Olson. Or Gandhi, who also was discouraged by the disagreement between Muslims and Hindus.

Greg said...

Because they're the same! I get it. It's time I left this discussion, I think, if this where it's heading.

I don't know if Marilyn was saying that or not. I do not think they are the same, even if I do disagree with their politics, they are certainly not organizing a campaign of genocide anywhere that I know of. I don't think Marilyn is implying that they are.

However, you can keep discussing the Indian situation. In fact, I was just reading that Gandhi was criticized as immoral for using the declaration of war against Germany by Britain as an opportunity to make demands that no Indians fight for Democracy in World War II when they were being denied it by the British.

Greg said...

Or not. My next history post won't be nearly as divisive. I'll write up the invention of popcorn or something.

Ryan Kelly said...


All I can say is what I like to think I would have done, which is that I would have resisted Hitler. And that's all you can say, too.


But of course, I'm not trying to imply otherwise. And yes, I'd like to think that I would have taken action against Hitler. But it's impossible to fully understand the state of German citizenry at that time, unless you were there, is my point. Personally, I find it difficult to blame people for attempting to preserve themselves. It's not like Hitler was ELECTED, he took power. And if you spoke out against him, you disappeared. We don't like to think this living in the land of the free and the home of the brave, but under the right set of circumstances, it could have happened here just as easily.

My point is that if Germany had been better taken care of, Hitler would have just been a loser ex-soldier failed painter.

And no, I don't believe EVERY German endorsed what Hitler was doing, but a whole hell of a lot of them did.

I think...you'd be surprised. According to your average history book, every American before the emancipation of Blacks was racist and endorsed slavery. It's just patently false. How many people are honestly in the position to do something about it? Some people fled the country, some spoke out, and most kept their mouth shut out of fear and nationalistic reasons.

you don't run a government based on the murder of your opponents and genocide, while using anti-Jewish propoganda to gain public support, under the cover of darkness.

Did I ever once say that I felt that was admirable, or even acceptable?

Ryan Kelly said...

planned on going into history here as well and this was the first real post on that

And an excellent job you did. I certainly hope no one's feelings were hurt or feathers ruffled, because I found the discussion most stimulating and fascinating.

My next history post won't be nearly as divisive. I'll write up the invention of popcorn or something.

Listen, Greg, we all know you're just making up strawman nonsense as to why buttered popcorn is better than un-buttered. Honestly, man, you're starting to look desperate.

Rick Olson said...

My next history post won't be nearly as divisive. I'll write up the invention of popcorn or something.

Don't do that, Greg. We love you. You're a much more careful historian than a lot of us (myself included), and I found it fascinating.

Nothing at all wrong with your post, and you can't control the comments. Or you could, but where would the fun be in that?

Greg said...

Hindenberg should never have appointed him Chancellor but given the power and popularity the Nazi party had he felt he had no choice. After that throw in an Enabling Act and then when Hindenberg dies have Hitler declare the Presidency now dormant and you've got the Nazi Regime.

I will say this: I do believe it can happen anywhere, even here, but it would happen in a quiet, covert way, in backrooms and sly military deals because they would know the public wouldn't stand for it if presented openly. In Germany, the difference was that Hitler, in public speeches and writings, blamed the Jews for the problems of Germany. He didn't shy away from that and the citizens all heard and rallied around those speeches. Then they started removing them from teaching positions. The Jewish artists then fled. Then Jews weren't allowed certain jobs, etc. etc. It wasn't like the Nazis feelings on Jews was a secret.

And Ryan, no feelings hurt or feathers ruffled. Bill and I have had more than a couple of rumbles online and have never been the worse for it. Bill's an excellent debater with formidable logic and reasoning skills. Sometimes it gets a little hot between me or Fox or Marilyn or Bill or Rick but we're not kids so we always come back again. Bill and I have even ganged up on Rick on his site a couple of times over World War II issues and he still hasn't banned us. Thanks Rick.

Greg said...

Rick, I won't don't worry. I was just joking anyway. The conversation here today was good. I got a little testy there for a comment too. It happens with a topic like this. I'm very happy though with the response because I do love writing about history. Up to now it's been in the guise of atomic bomb documentaries and it feels good to branch out from that.

Marilyn said...

I seem to have offended Bill, but I'm not sorry about what I said about neocons. They've destroyed many lives. With that, I'm going off line for a little while. See y'all when it feels right.

Greg said...

With that, I'm going off line for a little while. See y'all when it feels right.

When it feels right? Are you leaving blogging for a while? Going on hiatus? I hope not. You're one of the best bloggers out there and a personal favorite.

Rick Olson said...

Don't leave us, Marilyn, we need you. Don't go ...

Interesting day, around the ol' Cinema Styles homestead.

By the way, Greg, ran across this: http://cinemastyles.com/index_content.html

Is it you?

Fox said...

Greg-

This was a good first installment of History and the Movies.

I find it difficult to not watch most current films through a prism of modern politics & culture, and this seems like the proper way to reel that back to later times.

Greg said...

Thanks Rick and Fox, not only do I enjoy this but it's a good way to transition into the occasional pure history piece with no mention of movies.

Rick - No that's not me. When I started this blog up a couple of years ago I found that site and wondered about it. It's said the same thing for two years now so whoever it is, the words "coming soon" don't mean much to them.

MoralHeroes said...

Great article... I agree, she did set a great example of an active pacifist.

No one is perfect, but she did a lot more than most would expect from "the first woman elected."

By the way, Jeannette Rankin is featured as Hero of the week over at MoralHeroes.org

You should check it out and share it with your friends.

http://moralheroes.org/jeannette-rankin

Peter said...

Their will always be Wars until the last Politian and the last Soldier is strangled by the guts of the last Priest

P.HINDS