Tuesday, February 3, 2009

Empty as a Pocket


In 1986, with the release of his album Graceland, Paul Simon found himself in a curious position. His album was receiving the highest kudos from music critics the world over but at the same time he was being protested, criticized and vilified. The problems were many. First and foremost, he had violated a cultural boycott of South Africa, a boycott that was endorsed by the United Nations, by using South African musicians and recording in Johannesburg. Simon's supporters argued that he was giving exposure to the musicians of South Africa at a time when the world was ignoring them. His detractors claimed he was exploiting them, using them for backing rhythms, knowing that in the event of controversy, he could pull out the "I'm just trying to help" excuse. After all, without Simon it was argued, their careers in South Africa would have never taken off.

Many critics, most notably Charles Hamm and Dave Marsh, didn't buy the story then and still aren't buying it today. Marsh once quipped, concerning Simon's rationalizations, that he was "still lying after all these years." Hamm has written that the musicians Simon used and gave songwriting credit to, including Joseph Shabalala and his group Ladysmith Black Mambazo as well as General M.D. Shirinda and the Gaza Sisters, were and are all of the Conservative Black wing that, simply put, did not suffer during Apartheid. They were doing well already and Simon did not dig deep into the bowels of Soweto to find what the locals would call the real deal. And to add to the offense for many, the music was non-politicized. In most of Europe and North America that meant little, but to many musicians and artists in South Africa, it was a betrayal of the idea of using these musicians in the first place. That is to say, Simon went to all that trouble, breaking the cultural boycott and defiantly using South African musicians, only to make the grand political statement of "You Can Call Me Al." Simon said political songs would have endangered the musicians. Hamm and many South African artists disagreed.

The final insult came with the use of Linda Ronstadt on vocals for Under African Skies. The problem? Ronstadt was a habitual Sun City player and her presence on the album offended many. Writing in the Village Voice upon the album's release, preeminent rock critic Robert Christgau wrote, "The offense is compounded, of course, by who Shabalala's sister-in-song happens to be: a prominent violator of the Sun City boycott. Even if her lyric called for total U.S. divestiture, Ronstadt's presence on Graceland would be a slap in the face to the world anti-apartheid movement--a deliberate, considered, headstrong slap in the face."

Finally, there was the matter of payment, the one area where there was no controversy. Simon claimed not only were all the musicians paid according to American union standards, but triple that. Even Hamm agreed, the musicians were well paid.

There is a similar situation today, not with music but with the movies. Not with musicians but with actors. The movie is Slumdog Millionaire and the actors are Rubina Ali and Azharuddin Ismail, and this time the money situation isn't so easily defended.

First, here is the release from the filmmakers and the studio distributors:

FILMMAKERS STATEMENT:

From the moment that we hired them and long before the press became interested in this story, we have paid painstaking and considered attention to how Azhar and Rubina's involvement in the film could be of lasting benefit to them over and above the payment they received for their work.

The children had never attended school, and in consultation with their parents we agreed that this would be our priority. Since June 2008 and at our expense, both kids have been attending school and they are flourishing under the tutelage of their dedicated and committed teachers. Financial resources have been made available for their education until they are 18. We were delighted to see them progressing well when we visited their school and met with their teachers last week.

In addition to their educational requirements, a fund is in place to meet their basic living costs, health care and any other emergencies. Furthermore, as an incentive for them to continue to attend school a substantial lump sum will be released to each child when they complete their studies. Taking into account all of the children's circumstances we believe that this is the right course of action.

Since putting in place these arrangements more than 12 months ago we have never sought to publicize them, and we are doing so now only in response to the questions raised recently in the press. We trust that the matter can now be put to bed, and we would request that the media respect the children's privacy at this formative time in their lives.

- - Danny Boyle and Christian Colson

DISTRIBUTORS STATEMENT:

The welfare of Azhar and Rubina has always been a top priority for everyone involved with Slumdog Millionaire. A plan has been in place for over 12 months to ensure that their experience working on Slumdog Millionaire would be of long term benefit. For 30 days work, the children were paid three times the average local annual adult salary. Last year after completing filming, they were enrolled in school for the first time and a fund was established for their future welfare, which they will receive if they are still in school when they turn 18. Due to the exposure and potential jeopardy created by the unwarranted press attention, we are looking into additional measures to protect Azhar and Rubina and their families. We are extremely proud of this film, and proud of the way our child actors have been treated.

- - Fox Searchlight Pictures, Fox Star Studios, Pathe International

Having read through that in its entirety you may have noticed no one mentions what the two children were paid. The distributor release says "For 30 days work, the children were paid three times the average local annual adult salary." Triple, just like Paul Simon. Only Simon was paying triple union wages. Fox says they were paid triple the adult salary for the area. Do you want to know what the average adult salary for the area is? Rs 48,954. That's 48,954 Rupees. If you use a currency calculator like this one, you will find that 48,954 Rupees converts to $1,006 dollars. And in fact, the reports that do state how much the children were paid use the figures of a little over $1,060 and $3,600 for Rubina and Azharuddin respectively which jibes with the annual salary figures. Rubina got the average annual salary and Azharuddin got three times that. Now, for those who would argue that "well it's still three times" one would have to ask, "Is it fair to pay someone in Mexico 25 cents an hour just because the normal wage is 10 cents an hour?"

The cost of living in India is not in fact so far beneath that of England or the United States that an average salary of one thousand dollars puts you on Easy Street. Oh no, that average salary is well below the poverty level. It's just that, for that area, the average wage earner is impoverished.

So, if you are a producer, or director, or distributor and have within your means to pay these actors at least American or European Union Scale, why wouldn't you? The basic rates for a performer according to this rate sheet are as follows: $624 and $775 for a Day Player, category I or II and $2,190 and $2,712 for a Weekly Player (five days), category I and II. Now, if we take the low end, $624, and multiply by 30 we get $18,720. If we go weekly, again on the low end, and multiply $2,190 by six (30 days or six five day periods) we get $13,140. Either way, it's higher than what they got.

But Danny Boyle, the director, and Christian Colson, the producer, state they have also set up a trust fund, which will take care of the children's education and become theirs once they make it to eighteen, provided they stay in school. And if they can't stay in school or prefer to learn a trade so they can begin earning money at fourteen? Well, I guess they're screwed. Why they cannot have the trust fund set up and a lump sum of three or four time union wages paid up front I have no idea. If they were paid three times union scale, as Paul Simon did with the musicians on his Graceland album, an album that did not make nearly the amount of money that Slumdog Millionaire has, then the children would have been paid, using the low end weekly figure, $39,420 each. For first time actors in major supporting roles in a major motion picture that's fair. Many get much more, some get less, but for a non-star who cannot demand millions, that's about right.

So why didn't they get that? With such figures amounting to mere drops in a bucket for a producer and a distributor, why the hardball on the figures and the convoluted setup of the trust fund? Why? Honestly, I don't have the answer and it may surprise you but I still think it's possible that nothing wrong happened here. Maybe that trust fund is good for millions. The California Child Actor's Bill, popularly known as the Coogan Act, was enacted in 1939 after it was discovered that Jackie Coogan, one of the most successful child stars in Hollywood in the teens and twenties, had lost almost all of what he had made. His parents, it turns out, had spent nearly four million dollars of his money and Coogan, reaching adulthood, was left with $126,000. The bill applies to Hollywood productions only but maybe Boyle and Colson were and are acting in the same spirit of that bill. In fact, maybe Boyle and Colson have paid them more than they're letting on because they don't want the family put in jeopardy with people trying to steal their money. Of course, recent reports of the children still living in abject poverty don't give much support to this hope, but it's possible. However, we can never know until we get answers and so far we're just getting the runaround. I have sent an e-mail to Fox Distribution but have received nothing back. I will try again. My e-mail request was simple: How much, specifically in total monetary terms, were they paid?

I am not here to judge one way or the other, and cannot until I have enough evidence to make any kind of a reasonable judgment. Twenty plus years down the road and Paul Simon is still occasionally put on the defensive when discussing Graceland, most recently due to Los Lobos saying he stole their music, and there is still no resolution. But in 1986 they didn't have blogs. Now we do. Perhaps if some of the bigger ones got involved, say Jim Emerson or Roger Ebert, we could get some answers. Rick Olson, Pat Piper and myself have now posted on this but we are little fish indeed in this big movie blogging pond. Bigger fish would greatly increase the odds of getting an answer and putting this to rest. Until then, many people have a bad taste in their mouths. A taste of exploitation, and it won't go away without answers. Look once again at Graceland. I personally think Paul Simon felt the political statement was the act itself of employing the South African musicians. As for the rest of the controversy, I think Simon is an artist who, like so many, wanted to do something and didn't think all the political or social repercussions through. Where Simon appears different than Boyle and Colson is he never questioned how much money his musicians should be paid. Just because they weren't American musicians didn't mean they shouldn't get union scale, and in their case, three times that. The rest of the controversy lies in misconceptions and differences of opinion. With Slumdog Millionaire, the controversy lies in the payment, period. All that is required to completely and resolutely squash the controversy is for someone to pay Rubina Ali and Azharuddin Ismail their fair share, and if they plan on doing so with a trust fund, or have already done so, tell the press. That's it. That's all they need to do. Why is that so hard? Fox Distribution, Boyle and Colson, feel free to use a lifeline, call a friend, get an audience vote, do whatever you need to do but give us an answer. And as time is running out, we're going to need it to be your final answer. Thanks.

*****Post Script*****

I was going to use quotes from my fellow bloggers in this piece but decided it would be best if they were read in the context they were written. Rick Olson has already written about this twice and in the comment section here there is an excellent discussion of much that is perceived to be wrong with this situation.

83 comments:

Larry Aydlette said...

Wow. I had never heard that Los Lobos story. Of course, I always hated Graceland and never thought it was a work of genius. Just goes to show: You don't want to know anything about artists' true personalities.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Yeah, the Los Lobos story does make one wince a bit doesn't it? The thing is Simon admits that they were jamming when he heard the opening riff so their two stories jibe at that point. Since Simon gave credit to the South African musicians on the album I wonder why he didn't do so with Los Lobos.

Now then, Larry, you're Entertainment Editor for a large newspaper - Find out how much those two kids got paid. I have faith in you.

Marilyn said...

I own "Graceland," but now I feel the need to "divest" it. I had no whiff of this controversy - I don't read music-related stuff or follow it. Maybe I should.

Jonathan - I can almost guarantee that Steve at The Beachwood Reporter would reproduce this column in his publication, and his publicist could see that Ebert gets in. Are you interesting in me asking him to do so?

Jonathan Lapper said...

Marilyn, that would be wonderful. I read your most recent comment concerning the Coogan Act and it's one of the reasons I come off as perhaps a bit non-commital in this piece. I don't want to rush to judge if in fact the trust fund has been set up for all the right reasons and is in fact a healthy amount. If they don't want to make it public they could confide it to someone like Ebert who could then assure everyone things are kosher or say they need to do more.

Marilyn said...

I'll contact him. If you want to add anything about the Coogan Act in the piece he publishes, go ahead.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Thanks Marilyn, I just put in a mention of the California Child Actor's Bill in the second to last paragraph. That really might be what Boyle and Colson are doing and the parents are complaining about no money because they want cash in hand now. There are no answers at this point because somebody's not being honest or at the very least, there is a complete miscommunication between the parents and the filmmakers.

Marilyn said...

Yes, perhaps we have all rushed to judgment (like the great white father Rick complained about). HOwever, the wages the children received are still way too low.

Marilyn said...

Jonathan - Here's Steve's reply:

without reading it i can tell you i'm interested based on your description and you vouching for it. i will try to read it this afternoon - this morning is hell for me - but if you want to get the wheels in motion, that would be great. otherwise i can get back to you late today. thanks!

Pat said...

Jonathan -

This is a great, well-balanced, fair and incisive post. I'll be anxious to see what happens now.

(And, like Marilyn, I've owned and loved "Graceland" for years without ever knowing about all the controversy behind it. But, as you point out, we didn't have a blogosphere in 1986.)

Jonathan Lapper said...

Marilyn, I'm glad I waited a few days before writing this because the reflection on the subject gave me enough time to give the benefit of the doubt to everyone at this point until there are some actual answers. Thanks for sending the post along too, I appreciate it.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Pat, I have Graceland too and verified before writing this post that the South African artists are credited and Los Lobos is not. They're playing is credited but not the songwriting.

And while there was no blogosphere in 86 it was a time when my friends and I kept up with the music scene furiously reading Greil Marcus, Dave Marsh and Robert Christgau religiously, hanging out with bands and going to the 9:30 Club in DC and CBGBs in NY. My roommate at the time was friends with a member of Fugazi and though I can't remember who it was now, I do remember he loved movies and when he found out I knew a lot about them he picked my brain for about two hours straight.

Anyway, we all discussed the Graceland hullaballoo at the time, the pros and cons, who was lying and who was not. And because of that it immediately sprung to mind when thinking about the Slumdog Millionaire situation.

Marilyn said...

My pleasure, Jonathan. I may edit it a bit to make it a little more consumable by a mass audience, if that's ok with you. Of course, I'll let you see it for approval. Let me know.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Marilyn, I trust you as an editor. I'm writing for a blog, not a paper, so I write in a conversational style. If you feel things should be edited to better fit a paper, I trust you. I mean, yes, I'd like to see it first, but I trust you know what you're doing. I'm sure it can be snipped here and there. As for Charles Hamm, his info comes from books he's written but if you google "Charles Hamm, Revisiting Graceland" enough dissertations should come up if a bibliography is needed. But that's the reason I didn't quote him directly as I had no book on hand but I had read his views many times before and knew them well.

Marilyn said...

I don't think there's anything wrong with your use of Hamm's views, nor your writing style. I'm thinking more about the stuff that means something to us (Rick and Piper), but not to other people. What I think I'll do is provide links to their discussions with a "For more on this controversy" kind of thing. I'll get to work and keep you posted.

Peter Nellhaus said...

The children should have probably been paid something comparable to US or UK rates. I would give Boyle and Fox Searchlight some time to sort things out based on the problems Boyle had making the film in the first place, that at one point the distribution and format were uncertain as the film was originally made for Warner Independent Pictures, and that at the time the film was made the commercial prospects seemed dubious at best. A lot of things changed between the time the film was made until this current moment. I suspect that had Slumdog Millionaire gone straight to video, as had been anticipated by Boyle, or been a box office failure, there would be little discussion of the issues of payment for the child actors.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Peter, you're probably right that there would be no discussion because the movie wouldn't be a big deal. However, when you say Boyle was expecting it to go straight to video, are you implying that he short-changed the kids thinking it would never be publicized and has been caught unawares due to the movie's success?

Peter Nellhaus said...

As I said in the beginning, the children should have been paid a rate comparable to what would be considered appropriate in the UK or US, like whatever the kids in Millions received for example. The commercial prospects for Slumdog Millionaire became more doubtful when a film contracted to be entirely in English was made in large part in Hindi, because of casting decisions made on location.

I may be naive regarding this, but I think Boyle is trying to take appropriate steps because of the success of Slumdog Millionaire. Of course, Hollywood accounting being what it is, you never know what will happen.

bill r. said...

If all of this ends up being as bad as it sounds, I wonder how much Danny Boyle has to do with it. I keep thinking about Warren Zevon saying that "all artists are basically idiots". My gut feeling is that he said something like "These kids should be paid three times what an adult in this region gets paid annually! Also, set up trust funds and whatnot!" Then, feeling good about himself, he went about directing the film, while the producers and studio folk crunched the numbers and decided that Boyle's idea was a really, really great one.

I don't know that anything of the sort actually happened, of course, is it the habit of directors to get involved in this sort of thing?

But we're all ignoring the most important question: How will this effect Slumdog Millionaire's Oscar chances???

As for Paul Simon, are we all just taking Steve Berlin's word for it? I'm not going to, because as it stands, this is just a he said/he said situation. For what it's worth, here's Paul Simon's rebuttal (and there is supposedly more to come):

This Los Lobos thing has come up before, so I wanted to talk to you direct. They said all this stuff to Songtalk magazine in the States, and I've replied to it all in an interview that hasn't run yet, but its all there. There was a bad atmosphere at those sessions (with Los Lobos on Graceland) from the start; I don't know what it is with them. The whole deal for them working on Graceland was all worked out beforehand between Los Lobos and Lenny Warnoker (Managing Director at Warners USA) and there were no complaints at the time. It was made clear from the outset that we didn't have a song. There was no song. It was being written from scratch. I was - and still am - a fan of the band. What I really love is the accordion sound. So we started jamming in the rehearsal room and nothing was really coming together, and so I said do you have any ideas we can work on. What I wanted for the Graceland track was like a generic Los Lobos dikka-de-dikka guitar sound. And so we came up with something around a riff. They never once said that this guitar line is one of ours and we don't want you to have it. So we worked on recording this track for about three days, which is a long time to work on one track. I had to teach David Hildegger how to sing this song! And then David Hildegger came up to me and said "we're not happy with this track. We wanna do a ballard". But I couldn't have that. At that time it was the last track of the whole album - eventually we did one more - and I just said at this stage I don't care whether the album comes out without Los Lobos on it. I was getting really tired of it - I don't want to get into a public slanging match over this, but this thing keeps coming up.



So we finished the recordings. And three months passed, and there was no mention of "joint writing". The album came out and we heard nothing. Then six months passed and Graceland had become a hit and the first thing I heard about the problem was when my manager got a lawyer's letter. I was shocked. They sent this thing to my manager, not me. If there was a problem they could have contacted me direct, they've got my home number, we talked a lot. If you ask me it was a lawyer's idea. You know, "the records a hit, and there's $100,000 in it". They had nine months from the recordings to talk to me about all this, but I heard nothing. And its still not sorted out because they still keep bringing it up - I heard they'd done this interview for you. I don't want to get into a public slanging match with them, because I really like their music.


No, I don't know what a "slanging match" is, either.

Also, Berlin makes a big deal about Simon mispronouncing "zydeco". If that's true, so what? I still see a LOT of movie folk mispronounce "Scorsese". I've heard everything from "Score-say-zee" (which is how I used to say it, until I heard Scorsese himself pronounce it "Score-seh-zee") to "Score-see-zee". So "zy-decko" from Simon doesn't mean anything.

Rick Olson said...

First of all, great article, Jonathan, pulling it all together. Reflecting on it, and the great comments here, at my site, and Piper's, I'm not so sure Peter and Bill aren't talking sense. I especially like the Warren Zevon quote, Bill, as big a Zevon fan as I am.

I think they should have been paid scale, and the trustfund should be there whether or not the kids get educated or learn a trade or what.

Beyond that, maybe Peter's right and we should be hanging in there to see if Boyle and co. make it right.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Bill, the more I think about this and write about it, the more I think Boyle is probably pretty blameless. I trust (maybe I'm too trusting) that this publicity will cause him to correct anything that was done wrong the first time around. I

As for Simon, I'm not necessarily taking anyone's word over another, it's just that they both agree it was the members of Los Lobos who came up with the riff. Simon says in his rebuttal, "What I wanted for the Graceland track was like a generic Los Lobos dikka-de-dikka guitar sound. And so we came up with something around a riff. They never once said that this guitar line is one of ours and we don't want you to have it.

Look, I've composed a lot of music in my time. I know the simplest melody line can take off into something else entirely and provide a creative starting point. Since Simon and Berlin both agree the line was Los Lobos' I have a problem with Simon not sharing songwriting credit with them.

If you're familiar with the song Fame by David Bowie, and if you're not just go to YouTube or some other online station and listen to it, you know there is a short guitar line that plays for about seven seconds before the primary baseline and melody for the song take over. The writing credits for Fame are copyrighted under David Bowie, Carlos Alomar, and John Lennon. You know what Lennon wrote? That opening guitar line. That's it. That was the entirety of his involvement with the song. But he gets songwriting credit because he did write part of it. Generally speaking, in the music world if you contribute more than a measure (bar), you're a co-writer.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Rick, I think it is a wait and see situation for now. I wrote in the piece: I personally think Paul Simon felt the political statement was the act itself of employing the South African musicians. As for the rest of the controversy, I think Simon is an artist who, like so many, wanted to do something and didn't think all the political or social repercussions through.

I did that because I really don't think Simon had any ill intentions although as I said to Bill in the previous comment, I think he screwed up on the Los Lobos thing.

Anyway, Marilyn's mention of the Coogan Act is something that Boyle and Company may definitely have had on their mind when setting up the trust fund, but I don't think hinging it on finishing school should be there. If they want to become fisherman or carpenters at fourteen but can't because they will lose their trust fund, that's just wrong. I can understand the trust fund but I think they should drop the school provision.

shishir said...

I think Slumdog is a masterpiece and controversies are just sideeffects of it.http://controversial-affairs.blogspot.com/2009/02/slumdog-controversy.html

Fox said...

Are we so sure that "the cost of living in India is not in fact so far beneath that of England or the United States"?

I'm not challenging your questioning of Boyle's ethics - I haven't read much on it outside of your post and Rick's post (both great, BTW)- it's just that a friend of mine, who spent time in Hyderabad, once told me that $0.25 could buy you a full meal in India, and that you could live like a king on $6000.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Shishir, I wouldn't write off any controversies as just being a side effect of success. We've all given the producer and director a lot of leeway and accept that the trustfund may be in the best interests of the child actors. But these are real questions and concerns about children being used and paid a piddling amount for their service. We don't have all the answers yet, so I think vigilance is the best policy. A rush to judgment or a writing off of the controversy are both ill-advised courses of action without evidence.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Fox, I would say that's another area that needs to be fully explored. I found a site that boasts it's technical school graduates make about 22 thousand a year, American dollars, in India. If living like a king on 6,000 was true than 22,000 must make tech school grads Billionaire equivalents. Which I kind of doubt. But still I realize that there's very little info as of yet.

Fox said...

Also, might it also be more beneficial for the two kids to be assured education rather than be lump sums of money up front? I think Jonathan asks a good question of "why not do both", but I also think there are some cultural differences that we don't quite understand.

Meaning, if the children live in poverty-stricken ghettos, giving them large sums of money might make them susceptible to a lot of theft, corruption, and/or missuse of money that often happens in the poorest areas of India.

bill r. said...

Jonathan, first off, of course I know Fame! Who do I look like, Fox?? Second...

Generally speaking, in the music world if you contribute more than a measure (bar), you're a co-writer.

I'm sure you're right, and I'm not arguing that Simon was completely in the right, or that there is no grey area. I'm just saying that the way Berlin paints Simon as not only a contemptable asshole, but also as completely musically ignorant, sounds kind of fishy.

I wish I knew when the interview in which Simon supposedly fully addresses the issue was going to come out, and where I could find it.

As for Slumdog Millionaire, didn't the father of one of the kids come out in defense of Boyle and the producers? What did he say, exactly? I've had trouble finding it on-line. The only thing I did find on it wasn't terribly convincing, or really very informative at all.

Rick - Warren Zevon makes the vast majority of the songwriters raking in accolades today look like children.

bill r. said...

Meaning, if the children live in poverty-stricken ghettos, giving them large sums of money might make them susceptible to a lot of theft, corruption, and/or missuse of money that often happens in the poorest areas of India.

I think that's a very good point, Fox.

Fox said...

Jonathan, first off, of course I know "Fame"! Who do I look like, Fox??

You mean the show about those dancers? Yeah, that was awesome!

Peter Nellhaus said...

I also recall the controversy regarding Andres Serrano and his photo series, "Nomads". The photographs were of homeless people, all of whom were paid for their time. As I recall, the while the people used in Serrano's photos were paid well above minimum wage for their time, some people were outraged that they were not paid the same as a professional model.

Jonathan Lapper said...

I'm just saying that the way Berlin paints Simon as not only a contemptable asshole, but also as completely musically ignorant, sounds kind of fishy.

Me too. It seems a little overboard.

Warren Zevon makes the vast majority of the songwriters raking in accolades today look like children.

Lyrics suck today. They suck. I hear the highly praised, serious, award winning music my teens listen to and I'm sorry but the lyrics suck compared to people like Zevon, Newman or Cohen.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Fox: Meaning, if the children live in poverty-stricken ghettos, giving them large sums of money might make them susceptible to a lot of theft, corruption, and/or missuse of money that often happens in the poorest areas of India.

Bill: I think that's a very good point, Fox.

Jonathan clears throat: "Ahem."

Louder: "AHEM!"

I kind of wrote that in the post, guys.

In fact, maybe Boyle and Colson have paid them more than they're letting on because they don't want the family put in jeopardy with people trying to steal their money.

Jonathan Lapper said...

I also recall the controversy regarding Andres Serrano and his photo series, "Nomads". The photographs were of homeless people, all of whom were paid for their time. As I recall, the while the people used in Serrano's photos were paid well above minimum wage for their time, some people were outraged that they were not paid the same as a professional model.

You know what Peter's comment and Fox and Bill's comments (that echoed mine from the post - I feel like Steve Berlin) remind me of?

This.

Fox said...

Jonathan clears throat: "Ahem."

Louder: "AHEM!"


Fox: Amen!

No, I know, I know... I just wanted to bring it into the comments a bit.

B/c reading those quotes from Boyle, it sounds like he made sure he was doing the correct thing (I stress "sounds like"):

*"Taking into account all of the children's circumstances we believe that this is the right course of action."

Again, I'm just trying to suggest that their might be a lot of cultural intangiables that we don't quite understand and/or aren't considering.

But, there is still the question of "how much" money, and it's a good question. Definitely the cost of living is something to consider, and since Jonathan has info that conflicst with mine, (and mine is only third party verbal info.) I am curious to do some more digging.

bill r. said...

Oops. Sorry. My mind, she's not so good.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Well Fox, my info is simply coming from what I can find online. I have no doubt that 3,000 dollars in India can go a long way. All of this could be a mountain out of a mole hill but I don't think there's ever any harm in agitating for the truth. If Boyle and Company come out and say, "Look everyone, we can't reveal all the details because of where they live" I'll understand but the latest stories that Rick linked to showed the children living under a tarp with an out of work father with TB. That doesn't make it sound like anyone did too well by them.

Fox said...

All of this could be a mountain out of a mole hill but I don't think there's ever any harm in agitating for the truth.

Oh, god, I totally agree. And throw that "mountain out of a mole hill" thought out the window, b/c I think it's great what you and Rick and Piper are doing. It's a necessary conversation to have. I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit.

Like you said, all you're searching for is answers. I don't think anybody here (or at CCM or LET) have prematurely crucified Boyle. I think it's being handled fairly and with the best intentions.

bill r. said...

There is simply too much respect going on around here.

Marilyn said...

Doesn't this remind you of the discussion we had over The True Meaning of Pictures? The larger issue is to what extent an artist can use real people to create a work that earns everyone but the people in question a lot of money?

Perahps Girish can enlighten us about cultural issues that would complicate providing for the children in the way we suggest.

Jonathan - Edited and in your e-mail. Feel free to add, subtract, or spike the whole thing.

bill r. said...

Yes, as Jonathan and Marilyn have both pointed out, this conversation is a little too close to the one we had about True Meaning of Pictures for comfort. So I guess, according the the TOERIFC by-laws, Jonathan's choice of movie was NOT The Tin Drum, but rather Slumdog Millionaire. So Rick, I guess that means you're up.

Fox said...

Watch out Marilyn! Jonathan is about to lay an "Ahem!" on you!

Jonathan Lapper said...

There is simply too much respect going on around here.

Bill, I totally agree and I'm glad you said that. You've done a great thing here today by calling attention to that. You're wonderful in more ways than can adequately be described.

Rick Olson said...

R-e-s-p-e-c-t
Find out what it means to me ...

Rick - Warren Zevon makes the vast majority of the songwriters raking in accolades today look like children.

At the risk of going all religious on you, Amen. One of the saddest docs I've ever seen is the one detailing the making of his last album.

You know what Peter's comment and Fox and Bill's comments (that echoed mine from the post - I feel like Steve Berlin) remind me of?

My thoughts exactly.

Look, I think we oughta wait and see what comes down, that Boyle may be fixing it, but indeed, as Jonathan says, both children are still living in raw sewage. I wish that were not the case, and think that something might be done from the profits of this flick, which I like a lot. I hope it is.

Rick, I guess that means you're up

Nope, looking forward too much to The Tin Drum

Jonathan Lapper said...

Watch out Marilyn! Jonathan is about to lay an "Ahem!" on you!

Marilyn - Ahem!

Just kidding. It's easy not to see every comment on a thread but I did link to your True Meaning of Pictures earlier in the thread remarking on the similarities.

And so everyone knows, I've changed my movie to The Incredible Mr. Limpet.

Jonathan Lapper said...

R-e-s-p-e-c-t
Find out what it means to me ...


I googled, "What does RESPECT mean to Rick?" and came up empty.

So... what's it mean to you?

Rick Olson said...

Whatever it means to Aretha, man ...

bill r. said...

The Tin Drum can suck it!

Peter Nellhaus said...

"And so everyone knows, I've changed my movie to The Incredible Mr. Limpet."

You can never give Don Knotts too much love. I saw this in a double feature with Burt Kennedy's Mail Order Bride.

Rick Olson said...

Marilyn - Ahem!

Just kidding. It's easy not to see every comment on a thread but I did link to your True Meaning of Pictures earlier in the thread remarking on the similarities.


What gives? Marilyn took my head off when I missed one of her comments ... what a namby-pamby reply.

Bill's right -- too much respect going on around here.

bill r. said...

Don't you remember, Rick? Marilyn is "special".

God, I hate this place and all the politics and sucking up! And also the hierarchy!

Marilyn said...

Get used to it, minions. I am the law and the law is me!

Rick Olson said...

Especially the hierarchy! Down with the hierarchy!

Rick Olson said...

Get used to it, minions. I am the law and the law is me!

Minions ... hmmmmm ....

Marilyn said...

You're either minions or onions, can never remember.

Fox said...

Yeah. Marilyn always gets special treatment.

Jonathan "Ahem'd" me an Bill back into 2008 and then qualifies Marilyn's "Ahem" with "oh, it's ok, baby. Sometimes it's hard to remember all of the comments."

BLECH!

Now I know how the two kids from Slumdog millionaire feel... and it feels shi**y.

PIPER said...

Jonathan,

Great and well thought out.

My father has always told me to give things 15 minutes and then react. Of course I did not.

I write with fire and passion and sometimes things just spontaneously explode around me. That's me and it's not always right.

I appreciate that you have looked at it from both sides.

I still feel as if Boyle and Fox Searchlight are guilty here.

Bill wondered how much responsibility ultimately falls on Boyle. I would say a lot. The script did not call for the kids to speak Hindi. That was a call made by Boyle himself. He wanted more authenticity. But Boyle being a creative person, he probably did spout out something like "make it right by them" and then stopped worrying about it. And now here he is.

I appreciate the commitment to education and the trust fund, but it kind of feels like "we know better than you so we're deciding how this will go down." Not unlike the scene where the American gives the child a $100 bill and says that Americans are "the good guys." There's a bit of arrogance attached with it that's still hard for me to swallow. And really, how much is education a priority when you're sleeping under a plastic sheet, just trying to survive? It feels like a band-aid.

Hopefully this will be picked up and be made a bigger deal to ultimately get to the answer. We will see.

And Fox, why haven't you read my piece? You son of a...

Fox said...

ONIONS! (Inside joke alert... only Bill and Jonathan are cool enough to get this).

Fox said...

And Fox, why haven't you read my piece? You son of a...

Sorry, Pipes. I was ouy-of-town from Fri-Mon, and barely had any computer time.

I was doing the ____'s work.

bill r. said...

DOWN WITH MARILYN!!!

Jonathan Lapper said...

Boy, a guy leaves for a few minutes to pick his daughter up from school and look what happens.

Bill, Fox, Rick - There's no hierarchy here. A hierarchy implies there are levels of power on a scale. That's ridiculous. Marilyn is at the top and everyone else who isn't Marilyn is worthless, equally. See, no hierarchy. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go pick up Marilyn's dry cleaning.

Hail Marilyn!

Jonathan Lapper said...

Fox - you, me and Bill are the only true members of the Onion Union. Up with Onions!

Jonathan Lapper said...

I appreciate the commitment to education and the trust fund, but it kind of feels like "we know better than you so we're deciding how this will go down." Not unlike the scene where the American gives the child a $100 bill and says that Americans are "the good guys." There's a bit of arrogance attached with it that's still hard for me to swallow. And really, how much is education a priority when you're sleeping under a plastic sheet, just trying to survive? It feels like a band-aid.

Pat, that's how I feel about the education thing. I don't see that the trust fund should have anything attached to it. If they owe the kids the money for the work they did on the movie they can't say they have to stay in school to get it. I know a few people who didn't make it through high school because they didn't want to finish, instead getting a job. That's what some people do. To force these children to stay in school to get their payment they have already earned seems wrong.

bill r. said...

Jonathan, Marilyn's Putin-like control of your Medvedev-like administration is tearing apart out blogging circle. The people (me, Rick, Fox, etc.) will not stand for it any longer! You can't stem the flow of revolution!!

Fox said...

Boy, a guy leaves for a few minutes to pick his daughter up from school and look what happens.

Great. Jonathan had to play "the daughter card" and now I feel bad about everything I said... (sigh).

Fox said...

Although seeing what Bill just said, maybe that was just beautifully orchestrated propaganda.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Tsk, tsk [Jonathan shakes head], oh Bill. Oh Fox. I'm sorry you feel that way. How did such bizarre ideas ever enter your mind in the first place? Marilyn has no control over me and she nev...

I'm sorry, what's that Marilyn? Yes, I sent the rest of this weeks posts to your e-mail for your approval.

Anyway, like I was saying, I'm my own man and Cinema Styles is run by me. Don't ever think...

I'm sorry what Marilyn? Oh... I see. But... but... [hangs head defeated] yes Marilyn.

Um... anyway, like I was saying, here at Marilyn Styles, I'm my own man. So stop with all this nonsense and crazy talk okay?

Marilyn said...

I love you guy!!!!

Seriously, I am going through condo board hell right now - I have never been through anything like this for so long a period. You really brightened my day.

On my orders, of course. Yuri, give them all a ration of vodka.

Jonathan Lapper said...

As I have made Bill, Fox and Rick non-persons, I shall take their ration of vodka.

Marilyn said...

Photoshopped them out of the picture, eh? Stalin would be proud.

PIPER said...

I like Marilyn and I like Vodka.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Piper, welcome Comrade! Have some vodka!

PIPER said...

I have to warn you. I may be Scottish, but I drink like a Russian.

bill r. said...

I refuse your tyrannical potato opiate anyway! My senses are sharp and will remain sharp! Revolution sharp!

Jonathan Lapper said...

I'm sorry, did someone just say something, because I see No Person here.

bill r. said...

Yes, Jonathan...the people spoke!!!

Jonathan Lapper said...

The people? Huh? The people? Hmmm...

OH!!! You mean Marilyn's subjects!

Well, I hope they said something nice.

bill r. said...

NO! God, you're not even paying attention to us, the people! We're angry and want things to change, and, if necessary, we're going to use hope to do it! And by "hope" I mean "violent revolution".

jim emerson said...

Hi Jonathan: Just catching up. I haven't been following the whole "Slumdog" thing (or the rumors that Harvey Weinstein is behind them, either) -- mainly because I already came out and slammed the movie as a movie and I don't want that to get mixed up with the politics behind the making of the thing. EW (yeah, I know, an authoritative source) has a weird story about it, but I don't know who to believe...

Jonathan Lapper said...

Jim, I'll have to check out the EW story. I got an e-mail from the person I had e-mailed at Fox saying we should talk on the phone which I was fine with but then I never heard anything after that. Maybe they feel it's dying down now so they can ignore it.

mattdw said...

Having spent some time in India, I believe I can offer a bit of information on living costs.

In a way there are two Indias. There's the India where you earn US$22k in IT, and live in a western-style apartment, and there's the India where you live in the country, or in an urban shanty-town, or rent a single room for a family of six.

For the former, yeah, US$22k is a salary, and $3000 isn't that much. However, for the latter, $3000 *is* a world-breaking amount.

And, though it pains me to say it, there are concerns beyond whether these kids are living under a tarp near raw sewage. Okay, you give the kid's family $10,000 to sort themselves out; then what? What can they do with that much money that wouldn't completely up-end their world? They could find a nice apartment or something, sure, but then they've removed themselves from their community, and lost all their friends, and somehow they still have to earn enough to pay the rates, and the power, and so on.

Think of it like winning the lottery. A couple of hundred thousand dollars could, in the U.S., make a significant and very helpful difference to the average middle class family. A couple of million? More often than not, that's enough to destroy the family who receives it – if the money doesn't just go straight down the drain on parties and yachts and mansions that the family can't even afford the upkeep on.

Jonathan Lapper said...

Mattdw, thanks that is helpful to understanding the money situation there. The main point many are making with this case, and I think Rick makes it in one of his pieces, is that it doesn't matter what the family or children or anyone else would do with it. If it's what they earned, pay them. A studio doesn't say, "Well we can give Brad Pitt 20 million but he's just going to buy that god-awful 30 room mansion in Malibu and spend the rest on cocaine. Better to just give him 3,000 bucks."

It's not the studio's job to determine how responsible someone is or isn't going to be with their money. If $23,000 is what was earned by each child with their work on the production, then that's what they are owed, period, and it's not up to Danny Boyle or Fox Studios to decide they know better and become the great white protectors of the children. They should pay them and move on.

mattdw said...

Jonathan,

I guess that's a fair comment, although the Child Actor's Bill suggests some "paternal" thought should go into at least where the money goes, if not how much.

There have been documentaries and films made starring homeless people from the USA, yes? Does anyone know how much they received for their efforts, and what effect that had on their lives? It seems it might be a comparable situation – living in poverty is living in poverty.

it's not up to Danny Boyle or Fox Studios to decide they know better and become the great white protectors of the children. They should pay them and move on.

I do have to disagree with this. Their whiteness shouldn't stop them acting in a considered and responsible manner, and if they overstepped it seems to have been with good (moral) intentions. But I do definitely share your concern (and am more than a little conflicted about) the patronising tone of Boyle's and the studio's actions.

Jonathan Lapper said...

I do have to disagree with this. Their whiteness shouldn't stop them acting in a considered and responsible manner, and if they overstepped it seems to have been with good (moral) intentions.

Matt you're absolutely right. I too am conflicted over a lot of this. I know their intentions are good and I just wish the guy from Fox had called me back. Anyway, Jim Emerson mentioned it in his most recent post on the Oscars so maybe it will get a little more play and some better answers.